Better Odds Craps Or Blackjack

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The game of craps has a reputation for offering some of the best odds of all casino games. Unless you play perfect Basic Strategy at blackjack or perhaps count cards, you can't beat the Pass Line (or Don't Pass Line) with odds for a friendly bet at the casino. Offering a payout of 1/2, this bet has the lowest odds on the craps table. The chance of you winning is 66.7%, so the house edge is 2.44%. Yes, you have the best chance of winning, but the payout means that the casino still holds the advantage.

To fully get into the game of blackjack, you have to understand and if possible, master the blackjack odds and house advantages. It is very crucial to know how the casino gets their edge and how it helps them win. It's important to be aware of the blackjack odds like the odds of being dealt a blackjack or the odds of hitting a 10.

Blackjack	12 votes (66.66%)
Craps	6 votes (33.33%)

18 members have voted

Counting has nothing to do with it.
The advantage goes to the player whenever a disproportionate number of tens and aces remain to be dealt from the shoe.

And to the house when there are less aces/tens remaining. This is a 50/50 on which way the shoe will go where it's just as likely to favor the player as it is the house. The only difference when counting is the ability to identify these situations. To a player not counting they are just as likely to be in a bad count as they are in a good one, so they gain ZERO advantage just for playing blackjack.

Though you will still lose more than 50% of the time, the likelihood for a strong hand actually exists before the deal when the shoe is rich.

You're expected to lose 48% of the time, push 9% of the time, and win 43% of the time, and that's from the Wizard. The likely hood for a strong hand is equal to that of a weak hand before the deal. Taking counting out you again have no idea which situation you're in, and they're both just as likely. Again, you gain no advantage from just playing blackjack as you find yourself in poor situations just as often as good situations.

It is not like establishing a point shooting from the Don'ts, becasue a player statistical advantage cannot exist before the initial roll for the hand.

Given we've already established the shoe is equally as likely to be 'good' or 'bad' for the player, and that a non counting player has no way to identify this, all things are equal. They are just as likely to be in a good shoe as a bad. This means when they place their $10 bet, the original house edge of let's say -.5% they had on the first hand, is the same house edge on the last hand. -.5% all the way through the shoe...

The HE of a Pass line bet 'with odds' is not 1.41%. Even at 1X odds, the HE goes below 1%. At the typical 3x4x5x, it goes down to 0.374%...

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this... We can calculate the EV quite easily... It's a summation of all of your bets and their respective edges.
Blackjack (assuming .5% HE and $10 bet): EV = bet * house edge = ($10 * -.005) = -.05.
Craps (assuming $10 bet and $100 odds): EV = SUM(bet * house edge) = ($10 * -.0141) + ($100 * 0.00%) = -.141 + 0 = -.141
No matter how much odds you put down, you placed your original $10 wager on the pass line with a house edge of 1.41%. Your odds are even money bets (as everyone knows and agrees). Placing a billion dollar even money wager doesn't change the odds of your original bet.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this...Placing a billion dollar even money wager doesn't change the odds of your original bet.

I'm glad you're being respectful LOL - well, hell, that's never funny on the internet, what am I laughing about!?
We do disagree, and we have always disagreed respectfully.
The way I like to say it when pondering your point is, with free odds in Craps 'you can change the HE but not the EV'.
I do not agree that the HE stays the same. You could argue that they are separate bets and should not be thought of as a single bet, which technically is correct but, to me, not reality when the odds bet is made without fail.

I think that's a matter of personal preference. For me, the amount of variance at BJ is plenty enough excitement. Playing $10-15 a hand, I have lost $100 in one hour, or won $200 in two hours. Granted in the looooong run you'll be negative, but there is plenty of opportunity for short-run exciting wins. I don't keep records of lifetime net win loss, so even if I'm net down for a few years, i still have positive memories of those winning sessions.

I see your point, and of course people win often enough, and it might be enough for you. But the SD of BJ is known [just over 1], so it is not shooting from the hip to say the variance is low.
Sally, you are talking in riddles again ... let me read that again and I might comment.

I'm glad you're being respectful LOL - well, hell, that's never funny on the internet, what am I laughing about!?
We do disagree, and we have always disagreed respectfully.
The way I like to say it when pondering your point is, with free odds in Craps 'you can change the HE but not the EV'.
I do not agree that the HE stays the same. You could argue that they are separate bets and should not be thought of as a single bet, which technically is correct but, to me, not reality when the odds bet is made without fail. ...

I'm glad we can discuss in good fun. It's never my intent to upset anyone, and I do have a lot of respect for your craps knowledge I've seen you express through your posts. Where you lose me though is where you say 'you can change the HE but not the EV.' These two are 100% correlated, thus one can't change without the other changing.
Example (game doesn't even matter):
HE = -.5%... you bet $10.. your EV = HE*bet = -.005*10 = -.05

Better Odds Craps Or Roulette

If we change the HE, it WILL change the EV... HE = -1.0%, you bet $10 (again this could be on any game)... your EV = HE*bet = -.010*10 = -.10
Your EV is the summation of your different house edges applied to the different amounts bet. So say you make 3 bets at 1 time (again on any game in the casino):
Bet 1 = -.5% * $10
Bet 2 = -1.0% * $10
Bet 3 = 0% * $10
...Your EV = (Bet 1 EV) + (Bet 2 EV) + (Bet 3 EV) = (-.005*10) + (-.010*10) + (0*10) = -.05 + -.10 + 0 = -.15
You can see how this 3rd bet can be related to a craps odds wager that has 0% HE. Again, doesn't matter if it's a billion dollars or 1 dollar, since it has 0% HE, it has 0% EV, in the long run.

Which Has Better Odds Craps Or Blackjack

You're expected to lose 48% of the time, push 9% of the time, and win 43% of the time, and that's from the Wizard. The likely hood for a strong hand is equal to that of a weak hand before the deal. Taking counting out you again have no idea which situation you're in, and they're both just as likely. Again, you gain no advantage from just playing blackjack as you find yourself in poor situations just as often as good situations.

Forget counting.
This is not about whether the player knows his situation.
And forget about poor situations.
I simply stated, there are situations when the shoe is in condition to favor the player on the next hand.
Whether one is counting or not, when a shoe reaches a rich condition, the player had the edge for the next hand, before he even places his bet, whether he knows it or not.
This is impossible in craps where every initial hand begins at a disadvantage.
Although the dealer has the same chance of getting a strong hand as the player when the shoe is rich, the player still has the edge.
As I said before, the player will lose more than 50% of these hands, but he still has the advantage
First, there is the increased likelihood of a blackjack.
If the dealer gets one, the player loses one unit.
If the player gets one, he wins 1.5 units.
A disproportionate advantage to the player in an equal environment.
Stand conditions become much stronger against low dealer up cards, because the dealer has to hit with a shoe rich in tens and aces.
Doubles and splits become more favorable when the shoe is rich.

I'm glad we can discuss in good fun. It's never my intent to upset anyone, and I do have a lot of respect for your craps knowledge I've seen you express through your posts. Where you lose me though is where you say 'you can change the HE but not the EV.' These two are 100% correlated, thus one can't change without the other changing.

Hmmm, well you do seem to be stuck on this and it surprises me a bit that you are unaware that this is well covered elsewhere.* It does require combining bets, perhaps you call foul on that.
The way you can change the HE, but not the EV, is by a bet combination of a negative expectation bet with a free odds bet.
If you combine two negative expectation bets, it can be said that you can change the HE but can only increase the EV [the absolute value ]; a fact which escapes many a hedging player.
*for Craps, see http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/#toc-TheOdds [combined house edge area]

Forget counting.
This is not about whether the player knows his situation.
And forget about poor situations.
I simply stated, there are situations when the shoe is in condition to favor the player on the next hand.
Whether one is counting or not, when a shoe reaches a rich condition, the player had the edge for the next hand, before he even places his bet, whether he knows it or not.
This is impossible in craps where every initial hand begins at a disadvantage.

My point is IT'S THE SAME. Yes the player has random times when not counting they're the advantage... and this doesn't happen in craps.
BUT
The player also has the SAME number of random times when not counting they're at an even further disadvantage... and this doesn't happen in craps.
So your argument that blackjack could be better because you can get an 'advantage' sometimes (without counting) is erroneous, because the same non-counting players also play with disadvantages they also don't know about.

Hmmm, well you do seem to be stuck on this and it surprises me a bit that you are unaware that this is well covered elsewhere.* It does require combining bets, perhaps you call foul on that.
The way you can change the HE, but not the EV, is by a bet combination of a negative expectation bet with a free odds bet.
If you combine two negative expectation bets, it can be said that you can change the HE but can only increase the EV [the absolute value ]; a fact which escapes many a hedging player.
*for Craps, see http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/#toc-TheOdds [combined house edge area]

The bet made, bet resolved stays at 1.41% no matter what, even if you lay odds. The 'Roll' that is .42% I believe a number being taken out of context when saying 'the house edge is lowered.' When the bet is made, and when it's collected, by either side, it's 1.41%, and the odds is 0.00%. The Roll % I don't believe is indicative of the House Edge placed on a bet.
With the confusion surrounding this, it would probably be best to get it from the horses mouth (so to say) and hope that Mike would chime in possibly explaining the page/numbers a bit more.

Two of the most well-known casino table games are craps and blackjack. Though dealing with dice and cards, distinctively, both games carry the enthusiasm of high energy, and at times, high rolling players. Craps is generally considered a game of chance, whereas blackjack is considered a game of skill to a greater degree.

Craps has a much longer history, dating back to ancient Egypt with a similar game, and at least to the 12th century with the English ancestor, Hazard. Craps came to the U.S. in some form by as early as the 1700′s. Blackjack is a much younger game, only arriving on the scene in the 1890′s. Neither the long or shorter histories have seemed to dull players’ interest in either game, however.

Other comparison articles

Basic Comparison of Craps and Blackjack

Craps is a simple to learn game, requiring players to have very basic skills at rolling dice. The rules are simple and the basic play is easy to understand. The shooter rolls the dice; the surrounding players place bets on what the shooter will roll. The nuances come in the betting structure and the numerous bets than can be placed for or against a shooter and the house. There are not any specialized skills that a player has to master to potentially succeed at craps. One only needs to learn which bets reduce the house edge and stick with those to win, at least semi-regularly.

Blackjack on the other hand, though it has a simple premise of nearing but not exceeding a total of 21 with collected cards, does require more attention and specialized knowledge. There are basic blackjack strategies to help a player know whether to hit, stand, split or double the cards in front of them. Decisions have to be made about next moves based on the previous moves and present information. It’s not as simple as a toss of dice.

In both games however, there are key moves that help a player be as successful as possible. In blackjack, paying attention to the dealer, trying to guess what cards she’ll play next (as if she was a live poker opponent) is relatively useless. Instead, blackjack players who stick with the focused moves that take into account their two starting cards and remaining cards will be more effective. Similarly in craps, perfecting “perfect throw” or trying to bet on the biggest payoffs will only cost you valuable money and time. Instead, craps players who faithfully place odds bets as their bread and butter, will find their success consistent enough to give them earnings to stay at the table.

Strengths and Weaknesses of Craps and Blackjack

Frankly, most players are going to lose more money than they win at both the craps and blackjack tables. Yet each game has some advantages and disadvantages that players may consider before taking up either game.

Strengths

Both: the house edge of both craps and blackjack can be reduced enough to allow players to get close to even money when they play.

Both: lower table limits create space for novice players to start with lesser money bets; high table limits give high rollers a place to knock themselves out

Craps: learning a few key bets to use and a few key bets to avoid is all you need to get started playing craps

Blackjack: has the appeal of mathematics, counting and memory to challenge players

Weaknesses

Both: its deceptively easy to invest a lot of money in risky bets that you think will payoff big, but in reality those hits only come once in a great while

Craps: the addictive energy of the table can lure players into staying longer (and spending more) than is wise. Use caution and follow personal limits.

Blackjack: because there is strategy involved in which moves to make based on which cards are dealt, assuming you can play blackjack “off the cuff” without learning wise choices before a game is a sure way to lose a lot of money fast.

Mathematics and Probability In Craps and Blackjack

Better Odds Of Winning Craps Or Blackjack

The mathematics behind these two games are what will win players or sink them into a playing “funk.” Both craps and blackjack are based on probability, but they start diverging in the rates of effect as each game continues. Craps has the same, even probabilities with each roll of the dice. Every turn has exactly the same odd of landing on a bet of value to the betting players. The frenzy or “winning streak” can seem to occur for a player who hits favorable rolls, making a player believe that his good luck is accumulating. In actuality, that’s not possible with craps probabilities. The only way to “increase” your odds of winning are by consistently using odds bets to reduce the house edge.

Best Odds Craps Or Blackjack

In blackjack games however, the odds can begin to favor the player, if he knows which cards have been dealt. This is where counting cards is a technically legal but clearly frowned upon method in casino play. Players who are paying attention can recall which cards are in play, meaning that the player can determine which possible cards the dealer cannot have. This in one way blackjack players can also reduce the house edge to their advantage.

Comparing Temperaments

In forums and general players’ discussions, the clearest comparison between craps and blackjack comes down to the temperament of players, or the personality of games a player prefers. Craps is an energetic, highly charged game with fast play that remains in the hands of the participants (shooter, especially). In movies, the “party” seems to be around the craps table much more so than the blackjack table.

Blackjack, though still energizing, carries a more controlled tone, in large part due to the added strategic nature of the game. Players expecting to utilize more thinking tend to be somewhat more guarded in their social presentation. The focus for blackjack players is also more a competition against the dealer (who really represents the house) more so than it is against fellow players. In this style of competing, craps and blackjack are similar.

For players who like some degree of challenge and human interaction, but who don’t want to particularly or directly compete with fellow players, craps and blackjack are both good choices. Though played in a table setting, they are individual games in contrast to poker ring games, which clearly sets up player-to-player competition. Since both craps and blackjack have their “winning” characteristics, players will have to choose which fits their preferred style of casino play more closely.